What do Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce talk about? Now we know.

During Taylor Swift’s appearance on boyfriend Travis Kelce’s “New Heights” podcast this week, she described the first time she went to one of his football games. Surrounded by a group of his very tall friends, Swift said, she just strolled through the general admission entrance at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City — a very different path than the one she’d taken a few months prior when she headlined the venue in summer 2023 on her sold-out Eras Tour. She wore a hat and a mask and no one recognized her, because why would Taylor Swift randomly be at a Kansas City Chiefs-Chicago Bears game?

“There were rumors that we had been seeing each other, but I think people were like, ‘What would they talk about?’” Swift said, making a scoffing sound. “You know? Fair.”

In the aftermath of the mega-viral “New Heights” episode, which aired Wednesday night and racked up 15 million views on YouTube by Friday afternoon, Swift’s enormous fan base was still buzzing from the pop superstar’s two-hour sit-down on the show, during which she announced her new album and discussed the fight to regain ownership of her master recordings.

But in a surprising twist, she also talked in-depth about her relationship. Swift, famous for writing songs about her personal life, used to say that she wouldn’t discuss the topic in interviews because she revealed everything through her music. While she and former boyfriends have been extensively photographed in public, she never walked red carpets or appeared in interviews with anyone she dated.

So it was shocking to see Swift and Kelce just … sitting there on camera, together, casually chatting with Kelce’s brother and co-host, former NFL star Jason Kelce. They cuddled and made jokes and raved about one another’s work ethic and spoke about their daily lives together. And they finally answered the commonly asked question that Swift mentioned: What in the world is a conversation like between these two?

Swift summed up the differences in the song “So High School” on her last album, with a lyric widely assumed to be about her and Kelce’s respective interests in philosophy and sports: “You know how to ball, I know Aristotle.” On the podcast, Kelce made no shortage of jokes about the intellectual gulf between them. “She’s so hot when she says the big words,” he whispered to the camera when Swift called an album “esoteric,” though Swift pushed back on that narrative. “He does like a … ‘I don’t know what it means’ thing, but he knows all the words and he knows what they mean,” she said. “He may not have read ‘Hamlet,’ but I explained it to him.”

But it was clear on “New Heights” that they actually have plenty in common, including their weird senses of humor; they detoured into discussions about Swift’s passion for baking sourdough bread, as well as Kelce’s dream to someday rescue an otter. However, they also bonded through shared priorities, from maintaining closeness with their families to doing high-pressure jobs in the public eye. Kelce gazed lovingly at Swift throughout the episode, interjecting to call her the greatest songwriter of all time or say he was the luckiest man in the world. He said she was an athlete, a charge she denied, but he spoke in awe of the grueling physical regimen that she took on to perform 149 three-hour-plus shows on the $2 billion-grossing Eras Tour. It all left fans reeling.

“As a Swiftie, it was absolutely exhilarating, finally getting insight into these people in what felt like a very authentic way,” said Jordan Kennington, a licensed professional counselor from Greenville, South Carolina. She works with couples and frequently refers to the Gottman Method, which posits that one of the highest predictors for relationship success is the idea of “fondness and admiration,” something she saw on display between Swift and Kelce.

“That was such a big takeaway from the podcast … holy cow, these two people like each other,” Kennington said. Not “like” as in having a crush, but a genuine respect for what they do and who they are as people. While obviously she and the other Swifties don’t know the pair personally, she felt that their dynamic came through on-screen. “I couldn’t stop thinking about it.”

Kennington understands why fans think Swift would be drawn to another poet or deep thinker, and maybe not a football player who once famously tweeted, “I just gave a squirle a peice of bread and it straight smashed all of it!!!! I had no idea they ate bread like that!! Haha #crazy.” But unlikely pairings can be inspiring: When Kennington posted on TikTok about the episode, she heard from people who said that the way Swift and Kelce interacted with each other gave them hope for their own relationships.

“It shows them what it looks to be kind to one another, in a world where kindness is hard to come by sometimes,” Kennington said.

Swift raved about Kelce as well, calling him a “vibe booster” and “human exclamation point” who makes everything brighter, and said that one of his “green flags” is that he’s had the same group of close friends for years. She was charmed by the way they met, after he spoke on the podcast about trying and failing to get backstage to give her a friendship bracelet at the Eras Tour show in Kansas City, and thought it was a bold romantic gesture. Mutual friends reached out and told her to give him a chance.

“I was just like, he’s truly getting to know me in a way that’s very natural, very pure, very normal. … Also, just the way that he could make me laugh so immediately about normal things,” Swift said.

“Normal” is the key word here, given that nothing about being one of the most famous celebrities in the world can possibly be described in that way. Christie Kederian, a relationship psychologist in Los Angeles and longtime Swift fan, said she enjoyed how the conversation felt like watching an everyday couple FaceTime with a family member (Swift and Kelce were in a different location than Jason) while 1.3 million people watched live.

Kederian appreciated when Kelce said that he was “engulfed in the curiosity” about Swift’s life and her work. That was validating, given that Kederian is a former matchmaker who insisted from the beginning that Swift and Kelce, as two people at the top of their fields, were very compatible — even when others refused to see it.

“I think that actually makes for a great relationship, when you don’t have similar hobbies and can learn from each other,” Kederian said, especially when the couple can expand each other’s worlds. “And that’s exactly what they did.”

Meanwhile, Swifties are still rewatching the podcast episode to glean new details. Jess Tait of Bluffdale, Utah, has a Swift-themed podcast called “Typical Tuesday Night.” Earlier in the year, she and her co-host Karli Ellis made their predictions for Swift’s 2025, and Tait laughed as she guessed that Swift would make an appearance on “New Heights.” She doubted it would really happen.

“It’s really special as someone who has been seeing Taylor through her whole career and her hardships and ups and downs, and now seeing her being in a setting where she feels as comfortable as she possibly could,” Tait said.

She noted that most people would find being known as “Taylor Swift’s boyfriend” difficult. Swift and Kelce emphasized on Wednesday that they have to block out the worldwide media attention, because otherwise it would be impossible to think about anything else.

“I think not everybody can handle that kind of attention,” Tait said. So it has been particularly gratifying for Swifties to see the singer look so happy with someone who is unfazed by the spotlight. “They understand each other’s differences, and appreciate who they are.”